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Intruders and incubi: The waking nightmare of sleep paralysis

Brian Barrett Motherboard

© Nicolas Bruno

Once, when I was 17, I woke up in the dark and couldn’t move.

I could hear, at least. That’s why I was awake to begin with: someone was banging on the front door in the middle of the night, insistent, sharp, angry.

I could see, too. My eyes were open to the ceiling above me. My head, though, was locked into position by some invisible vise. I tried to yell, to warn my parents about the angry intruder outside, and the irrevocable harm I was convinced he would do. I couldn’t yell. The knocks got louder.

No matter how insistently I begged my body to jump out of bed and find a place to hide, it remained a slab. Something terrible was about to happen to me, to my family. The door was going to give way. The outsider was going to come in. I was going to face whatever—whoever?—came after completely immobilized and alone.

It was the most afraid I’ve ever been in my life. What I realized, looking back later, was that it still would have been even if it weren’t for those knocks on the door, and my certainty that something awful would follow. My deepest fear came from the realization that my body, in that moment, had become completely dissociated from anything I recognized as myself. It was a car sinking to the bottom of a lake, my mind its captive passenger, waiting to drown.

I don’t remember how long it lasted, but eventually it wore off. I quickly found out that the person on the porch was my older brother, home at an unexpected hour on an unexpected visit from college. It took me a few more years to figure out that the other part, the immobility, the sense of self reduced to flickering consciousness, even the deepness of the fear I felt, had a name. It was sleep paralysis.

At least, that’s what we call it now. Dr. S.A. Kinnier Wilson coined the term in a 1928 edition of the medical journal Brain. His description then should feel familiar to anyone who has experienced sleep paralysis today: a man dreamed of a murderer, then carried that dream over to a conscious state. The patient in question “lay thus, flat on the floor, motionless but suffering acute mental stress.

That’s not to say that sleep paralysis is a relatively new human experience. A Dutch physician named Isbrand van Diemerbroeck published several case histories that accurately describe sleep paralysis in 1664, one of which, titled “Of the Night-Mare,” may as well have been penned by Mary Shelley.

“In the night time, when she was composing her self to sleep, sometimes she believed the devil lay upon her and held her down, sometimes that she was choaked by a great dog or thief lying upon her breast, so that she could hardly speak or breath, and when she endeavored to throw off the burthen, she was not able to stir her member,”van Diemerbroeck wrote, suggesting moderate exercise and plenty of juice as a possible remedy to the invisible nighttime demon attacks. [17th century sics implied throughout.]

Even that landmark medical documentation isn’t remotely the first reported instance. Go back further still, and you’ll find references to sleep paralysis in medieval Persia and Ancient Greece and even more ancient (400 BCE) China. There’s probably a cave drawing somewhere that depicts a red-eyed saber-toothed tiger sitting atop a paralyzed Neanderthal’s chest. Sleep paralysis is as ageless and as universal as fear itself.

It’s not quite as simple as simply being afraid, though. It’s a complex confluence of physiological and psychological occurrences that force you to experience your deepest nightmares with eyes wide open.

Take a normal night of sleep, assuming you still have those once in awhile. Your body cycles through five sleep stages, the last of which is REM, which you probably remember from your high school biology class as being your brain’s lights-out, shut-it-down, dream-time state.

Which is great! Dreaming is wonderful, especially if you ever wondered what it might feel like to fly down Rodeo Drive with a soft serve twist cone in one hand and a chainsaw in the other. Dreaming, though, can also be dangerous, because your big dumb body doesn’t necessarily know that your brain is just playing pretend. Given the opportunity, your body will act out those dreams, which can lead to a whole other terrifying condition called REM sleep behavior disorder (RBD).

You’ve heard of sleepwalking, which can technically be a type of RBD, depending on whether it occurs during the REM stage of sleep. Many RBD episodes are much more involved than just puttering down the hall, however. Think of it like this: juggling with tennis balls and juggling with flaming swords are both technically types of juggling, but you’d never confuse the two.

Comedian and storyteller Mike Birbiglia turned his experiences with RBD into a very entertaining show, book, and film called Sleepwalk with Me. Well, entertaining but also terrifying; at one point in his mid-20s, Birbiglia threw himself out of a closed, second-story La Quinta motel window. At the time, in his dream, he was trying to escape an incoming guided missile.

The reason more people don’t experience RBD is that the brain also has a safety valve. “During dreaming… bursts of neural activity called PGO waves spread through the cortex, producing the imagery we experience during dreams,” explained James Allan Cheyne, sleep paralysis expert and professor emeritus at the University of Waterloo. “Simultaneously, activation spreads down the spinal column causing spinal interneurons to suppress signals that normally would produce muscle movement.”

Your body, in other words, paralyzes itself during REM sleep to keep you from throwing yourself down a stairwell when you dream about laying out for touchdown pass to win the state championship.

Sleep paralysis, then, is what happens when you wake up before that effect has had a chance to wear off. Your body has frozen to keep you from acting out your dreams. But also, haha, good joke, you’re still dreaming.

“You have aspects of REM sleep that are going on when you have waking, conscious awareness,” said Brian Sharpless, assistant professor of psychology at Washington State University and author of a recent book about sleep paralysis. “First, you’re paralyzed, and second, you are having dreams, but unlike normal dreaming these two things are happening while you’re awake and able to look around the room.”

Not just any dreams, though. Sharpless estimates that while a little less than a third of our normal dreams could be considered nightmares, 80 to 90 percent of dreams experienced during sleep paralysis qualify. “You can kind of imagine why,” he said. “If you’re lying on your back and can’t move, that’s scary enough. And if you’re having hallucinations that are scary as well, that’s a bad mix.”

My own sleep paralysis, then, was fairly textbook. The banging on the door vaulted me into consciousness but not out of REM, leaving me frozen in a liminal hell of the mind, waiting for a bad man with an axe to bust down my door. Actually, I got off easy.

As it turns out, sleep paralysis nightmares can be divided into three tidy categories, two of which—the Intruder and the Incubus—would make for decent Paranormal Activity sequels. The third is “vestibular and motor,” a less-fun name for a more-fun condition.

Cheyne cautions that these categories are broad, and the experiences the describe can vary greatly. On the other hand, he also is one of three authors of a landmark 1999 scientific paper, published in Consciousness and Cognition, that helped define them.

Vestibular and motor incidents—Cheyne calls it “Unusual Bodily Experiences” in his 1999 paper—are relatively harmless, potentially even enjoyable. “It’s fancy term for feeling like your body is being moved without its volition,” Sharpless explains. “You could feel like you’re floating, or levitating, or your arm is being lifted.” Not so bad, right? Your standard Sigourney-Weaver-in-Ghostbusters scenario.

The other two, Cheyne says, have no such upside potential.

For Intruder experiences, the main sensation is the sensed presence—a feeling of something in the room,” he recently explained over email. “That something may then also be seen, heard, or physically felt. It may move around the room, approach the bed, and sometimes climb onto the bed.”

Scary! But remember, at this point you also can’t move. As far as you know, you may never be able to move again, even if you somehow survive being horribly violated by the shadow monster in your periphery. Screaming would at least be cathartic, but you can’t scream, and you can’t breathe all that well, so all that’s left is to wait.

I was fortunate in that my Intruder scenario involved an actual (friendly!) person. That gave quicker closure, presumably, than some hallucinatory demon-dog lurker might have. I was fortunate, also, that I didn’t draw an Incubus instead:

The Incubus experiences often continue this sequence by climbing on top of the ‘sleeper,’ Cheyne continues, “perhaps smothering, and even assaulting them physically and sexually.” This is how your brain works. This is van Diemerbroeck’s devil.

© Nicolas Bruno

Beginning in February of 1995, reports began to circulate throughout Zanzibar of a spirit that assaulted men and women in the dark of night. Its name was Popobawa, which means “winged bat,” because that was the form it was said to take most often, though it was just as often invisible.

As social anthropologist Martin Walsh detailed in 2009, Popobawa attacks spread quickly throughout the country, jumping from person to person, house to house, and village to village, eventually constituting a full-blown paranormal pandemic.

The bat demon was said to sodomize its victims. The response was violent. At one point, residents of Zanzibar City murdered a suspected Popobawa who unsurprisingly turned out to be a human, one who had visited the capital in search of mental health treatment. The terrors, both spiritual and corporeal, continued. Then, three months after they began, the Popobawa incidents stopped.

An entire nation plagued by a sex-starved bat demon would laughable as a SyFy channel script. As reality, it seems impossible. That it led to mobs and murder, more so.

It happened, though. And again, to a lesser degree, in 2007 (“Sex attacks blamed on bat demon” read the restrained BBC headline that time). How?

“A typical [Popobawa] assault involved somebody waking up in the night to find themselves being attacked by an amorphous or shape-shifting intruder, which was most frequently described as ‘pressing’ or ‘crushing’ their chest and ribs, and of suffocating them until they had difficulty in breathing and passed out,” Walsh wrote. “In general all of the victims experienced extreme terror, and were often frozen speechless when they were assaulted.”

An intruder. An incubus. The inability to move. The loss of respiratory control. The Popobawa, Walsh concludes, was no demon. It was textbook sleep paralysis, at a massive scale.

Zanzibar’s example is extreme, but far from isolated. Every culture has its bogeyman. Every century has ghost sightings. Everyone has heard things go bump in the night.

“We believe that sleep paralysis is a good, naturalistic explanation for a lot of paranormal beliefs,” said Sharpless. “Alien abductions that occur at night; visits by ghosts and demons; more recently, shadow people. If you look at people’s first-hand descriptions of these events, they map really well on to sleep paralysis.”

“Different cultures have come up with unique names for sleep paralysis that are descriptive of various common experiences in how it manifests,” explains Kevin Morton, who five years ago founded a site dedicated to better understanding sleep disorders as part of an undergraduate project at Stanford University. “In Japan it’s been known as ‘Kanashibari’ (retaliating spirit), in Thailand ‘Phi um’ (enveloping ghost), or the ‘Hauka’I po’ (night marchers) in Hawaii.”

In the same way that we might ascribe a happy coincidence to a guardian angel or God, we paint sleep paralysis with the brushstrokes of our deepest terrors.

Sleep paralysis being blamed on ghosts, spirits, and demons transcends cultures, but you can count on Japan to give it the perfect anime treatment.

Estimates vary as to how many people will experience sleep paralysis at least once in their lifetime. Sharpless pegs it at 8 percent of the general population, with students (28 percent) and psychiatric patients (32 percent) even higher. Sharpless thinks that spike may be attributable to those groups having disrupted sleep patterns to begin with, making sleep paralysis more likely. Cheyne notes that incidence rates are higher still “in societies with an active tradition of haunting night spirits.”

Despite the prevalence of sleep paralysis, especially among certain groups, there’s been no large intervention trials to determine an effective treatment for it. In a 2014 paper, Dr. Sharpless and co-author Jessica Lynn Grom outlined a few preemptive methods (e.g., changing sleep positions and patterns), as well as techniques to help mitigate the impact mid-episode. Among the most effective of those? Simply trying to calm yourself down in the moment, if you can manage it. Focus on trying to move your extremities. Don’t worry about the demon on your chest.

That’s more easily accomplished if you’re aware that you’re experiencing sleep paralysis, or even of what sleep paralysis is. It’s a condition that’s been largely (apologies) in the dark, in part because it’s not an easy thing to talk about. I didn’t tell anyone about my experience for years, and even then it was only after I had found out what it was. Until then, I was too worried that it signaled something deeply wrong with my body or mind or both.

“Sleep paralysis has quite a large awareness bias associated with it,” says Morton, whose site has received hundreds of submissions from people who have lived it, and a magnitude more visitors looking for answers. “It is such a crazy experience–waking up with your body paralyzed, often hallucinating frightening dream imagery, occasionally of a sexual nature–that those who experience it often don’t talk about it with others, usually out of fear that they will be seen as crazy or possessed, or just otherwise stigmatized if they bring it up.”

Morton is optimistic about the internet’s power as a great normalizer; all it takes is a quick search of symptoms to find out that you’re neither possessed nor insane. Sleep paralysis also seems to be having a larger cultural moment beyond the web, if a phenomenon as old as consciousness itself can be said to have moments.

That’s a brief clip from The Nightmare, a documentary from Rodney Ascher, which brings brings to life people’s real descriptions of sleep paralysis events. Ascher, who previously directed the critically lauded Room 237, pursued the topic after experiencing it himself. Devil in the Room, a short film released in 2014, takes a similar approach, while photographer Nicolas Bruno has a series of photographs depicting the horrors he has experienced in his years of sleep paralysis.

Most dreams stop when they want to, not when you tell them. A modicum of awareness, though, helps with what comes after. Even if you can’t beat sleep paralysis, you can cope with its reverberations.

There’s comfort in knowing that the demon on your chest actually resides in your mind. Or at least, that yours isn’t the only mind with demons.

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Paranormal

Self Proclaimed ‘Time-traveller’ claiming to be from 2030 PASSED lie detector test –

A ‘time-traveller’ who says he is from the future has passed a lie detector test after claiming Donald Trump will be re-elected and Artificial Intelligence will take over.

In a startling YouTube video posted by Apex TV the man, whose face and voice have been distorted to hide his identity, claims he has risked his life to travel back in time.

Apex TV says it is ‘one of the biggest voices of paranormal content on YouTube’, with over 56 million views and 100,000 subscribers.

His mission, he says, is to tell those alive now what the world has in store.

Among his predictions is the claim that Google Glass-style robotics will spread across the globe.

Technology will also have developed to the point where it will be able to independently run a home.

Bitcoin will be increasingly popular but pennies and cents will still be in use.

In 2030 he says the US president is a mysterious figure called Ilana Remikee.

He also suggests global warming has caused temperatures in North America to increase while Europe has cooled.

Humans will reach Mars in 2028 and, the same year, time travel will be discovered.

He states that electric cars will be able to travel as fast as diesel and petrol ones (despite many already being able to do so) and many forms of cancer have been cured.

In a previous interview with Paranormal Elite, Noah said he had anorexia and is in fact 50-years-old, but that he had taken an age rejuvenation drug which had transformed him into a 25-year-old.

Of course, his claims have attracted scepticism. In response, he agreed to take a lie detector test on camera.

In the footage from ApexTV the would-be oracle is seen sitting on a chair with what appears to be a polygraph lie detector wrapped around his bicep.

He is asked to predict some of the future’s major events – and confirm he really is who he says he is.

The interview begins and Noah is asked a simple question: ‘Are you an actual time traveller from the year 2030?’

He responds with a yes and ‘TRUE’ appears in large green letters superimposed on the video. However, the results on the machine are not shown.

Noah then claims he has ‘hard evidence’ to back up his predictions but isn’t sure that he can say what that it because it might cause a paradox.

Once again, the word ‘TRUE’ appears on screen again.

Read More On This At:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/

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Paranormal

The Top 5 Scariest Places in the Philippines

Discover the top 5 scariest places in the Philippines and learn the truth about them. If you’re looking for spine-chilling places to explore while staying in the Philippines for vacation, then let me walk you through the top 5 scariest places in the Pearl of the Orient Seas.

Haunted places like streets, buildings, and houses usually have a rich history of bloody past. Most of the paranormal activities that are happening in these places came from morbid and tragic events in the old times. Some scary stories take root in legends and mythical characters that people talked about for many years.

In the Philippines, where history and culture mostly developed because of its rich antiquities during the war era and invasion period, many haunted places now were remnants of the past. While other spooky places were brought by tragic events from unfortunate accidents.

In this article, let me take you to the scariest places in the Philippines that will surely raise your curiosity if you’re into ghostly and eerie adventures. Check them out below.

List of Top 5 Scariest Places in the Philippines

Balete Drive

First on our list of top 5 scariest places in the Philippines is one of the most famous ghost area in Manila, the Balete Drive. Located in New Manila, Balete drive is said to be haunted by a white lady (a popular ghost in the Philippines, which means a female soul or spirit dressed in white. According to commuters and drivers specifically taxi drivers, at around 12 midnight and 3 am, a bloody white lady shows up to either ask for help or look for her murderer.

Back in the past, it was said that a female student was raped and murdered in Balete Drive. During those days, Balete trees surrounded Balete Drive. This is the main reason the street was called Balete Drive. The alleged murderer was said to be a taxi driver and according to the reports, that woman was buried under a Balete tree. In addition, according to folklore, Balete is housed with mysterious creatures and this contributes to the already haunted street of Balete Drive.

Clark Airbase Hospital

Hospitals are the common lounge of spirits and abandoned hospitals are even worse. In Angeles City, Pampanga, an abandoned hospital was featured in the horror documentary; “I wouldn’t Go in There” of National Geographic back in 2013 and this was the Clark Airbase Hospital. In the past, it was a refuge site to soldiers during World War II and the Vietnam War.

According to the Ghost Hunters International group, Clark Airbase Hospital was one of the most haunted places in the world because the spirits who are residing here are reported as violent and rude to visitors. Based on some personal accounts of explorers and paranormal investigators, spirits and the unknown threw rocks and other objects to them when they visited the place. Paranormal activities like screams, howls, and apparitions are also common in this hospital.

Pindangan Ruins

Third on our list of top 5 scariest places in the Philippines is the Pindangan ruins, in San Juan City, La Union. This place is the remnant of an old church that was built in 1786. In the past, it was a place for unity between two villages (San Vicente de Balanac Village and Guillermo de Dalagdang Village) under the protection of Father Jose Torres. Now, the place is full of spirits and the most popular spirit was said to be the headless stabbed priest who was allegedly seen searching and calling for his lost head.

Moreover, this place is also haunted by spirits that are called “Pasatsat” which comes from the word “satsat” that means, “to stab.” They were the people who died in World War II when coffin and graveyards were too expensive so people wrapped their dead in reed mats. According to locals, these spirits will haunt you and in order to stop them, you have to stab open their makeshift caskets and cut it in half.

Ozone Disco

One of the terrifying fire accidents in the Philippines took place in Ozone Disco in Quezon City. On March 18, 1996, a massive fire engulfed the small nightclub. The disco was approved for occupancy of only 35 people, but during that time, around 350 patrons and 40 club employees were said to be enjoying the night in the Ozone disco. Based on the accounts of the surviving victims, light sparked flying inside the disc’s jockey booth and shortly after that smoke followed and people thought it was just a party plan. To their horror, the electrical system shut down and flame erupted.

According to the court, 162 people died in the Ozone disco and most victims were graduating students from Universities. These days the disco is already an abandoned place but many ghostly sightings were reported within the area especially at night. Some locals said that they could hear music and see disco lights. Others claimed seeing silhouettes of dancing people and hearing screams and moaning. Moreover, families of the victims were occasionally seen in the place with spirit mediums to contact their dead loved ones. In one occasion, a spirit of a boy named “Ed” was contacted and according to the reports, he wanted to say goodbye to his family.

Diplomat Hotel

In the popular city of Pines, Baguio, there is this haunted place called the Diplomat Hotel or also known as Dominican Hill Retreat House. This structure was built in 1911 for the American Friars of the Dominican Order. It was originally constructed as a retreat house for relaxation, a monastery, and a school all-in-one. In the height of the World War II, the Japanese attacked the hotel and many people were ruthlessly killed. This includes ordinary children, priests, nuns, families and even babies.

The Diplomat Hotels, Inc., revived the place in 1973 and according to the staff of the hotel; the place is indeed haunted and scary. Years later, the owner died and the hotel stopped operating.

Many ghost sightings have been reported in the area. Some claimed that headless priests and nuns, who were victims of the World War II, haunt the Diplomat Hotel. Others heard moaning and crying of babies at night. Moreover, paranormal activities like the banging of doors, screaming people in pain and ghostly apparitions were said to occur in this haunted hotel.

If you’re brave enough to visit these places, then I suggest you don’t go alone. You may encounter bad spirits or ghosts that can harm you. Alternatively, If you’re scared and couldn’t imagine yourself traveling these scariest places, then I suggest you focus on exploring the wonders of the Philippines.

Interesting Links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_Disco_Club_fire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Air_Base

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_haunted_locations_in_the_Philippines

https://www.buzzfeed.com/isabellelaureta/haunted-places-philippines?utm_term=.stYMVQ1gm#.xcAaKXAVM

http://business.inquirer.net/238610/haunted-structures

https://philnews.ph/2017/10/31/top-10-terrifying-scariest-places-philippines/

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How Scientists Found “Paranormal Perception” Channels Within Human Beings

In 1976, a presentation was given at the Institute of Electrical & Electronics Engineers (IEEE) on a paper published by the Institute on behalf of Hal Puthoff (now part of the To The Stars initiative that received and released the recent UFO Pentagon footage) and Russell Targ.

The paper was titled “A Perceptual Channel For Information Transfer Over Kilometer Distances: Historical Perspectives and Recent Research.”

Puthoff, who held a PhD in electrical engineering from Stanford, at the time was commissioned by the CIA/DIA and Stanford Research Institute to direct the Stargate project, which was one of many secret government programs that remained hidden from public knowledge for more than 20 years.

Russell Targ is a physicist and author, originally known for his work pioneering the development of the laser and laser applications, and a co-founder of the Stanford Research Institute’s (SRI) investigation of psychic abilities in the 1970s and 1980s.

The Stargate Project examined human psychic abilities; today it’s known as the study of parapsychology.

The paper was the first and only publication of this program before it became classified in the late 70s, and it presented scientific evidence for the existence of a perceptual capacity channel whereby certain individuals are able to perceive and describe remote data not perceivable to any known sense.

In fact, by 1975 the funding clients had agreed that this subtle perception channel existed in both experienced and inexperienced individuals. (source, a lecture from Ingo Swann, one of 500 highly skilled participants within the program).

In the program, participants were able to successfully identify buildings, roads, and laboratory apparatus, but more than two decades later, parts of the program were declassified and we found out that it was much more than just that.

This is outlined in a statement made by Puthoff from a paper published after the declassification in 1995:

“To summarize, over the years, the back-and-forth criticism of protocols, refinement of methods, and successful replication of this type of remote viewing in independent laboratories has yielded considerable scientific evidence for the reality of the [remote viewing] phenomenon. Adding to the strength of these results was the discovery that a growing number of individuals could be found to demonstrate high-quality remote viewing, often to their own surprise. . . . The development of this capability at SRI has evolved to the point where visiting CIA personnel with no previous exposure to such concepts have performed well under controlled laboratory conditions.” (source)(source)

Participants in the program were able to remote view objects in other rooms, to buildings, and places all over the world.

For example, a Soviet Tu-22 bomber, one that was outfitted as a reconnaissance aircraft and lost in Zaire in 1979, was located by an Air Force remote viewer. President Jimmy Carter was aware of this, admitting to national press that the CIA, without his knowledge, once consulted a psychic to locate a missing government plane. According to CNN, he told students at Emory University that the “special U.S. plane” crashed somewhere in Zaire. The only thing is that it was a Russian, not American plan.

According to Carter, “the woman went into a trance and gave some latitude and longitude figures. We focused our satellite cameras on that point and the plane was there.”  (source)

According to Paul H. Smith, PhD, and one of the participants in the Stargate project (now a retired U.S. army major), gives us more detail from his book that is sourced below:

In March 1979, a young Air Force enlisted woman named Rosemary Smith was handed a map of the entire continent of Africa. She was told only that sometime in the past few days a Soviet Tu-22 bomber outfitted as a spy plane had crashed somewhere in the continent.  The United States desperately wanted to recover the top secret Russian codes and equipment the Tu-22 carried. Using their remote viewing skills, she pinpointed the wreckage, even though it had been completely swallowed by the jungle canopy into which the jet had plunged nose first. (source, pg. 31)

Another example would be the rings around Jupiter. Prior to the flyby of Jupiter by Pioneer 10, a spacecraft launched in 1972 and the first to fly directly through the asteroid belt and make observations of Jupiter, a gentleman by the name of Ingo Swann was able to successfully describe and view a ring around Jupiter, which scientists had no idea even existed. This took place precisely before NASA’s Pioneer 10 spacecraft flyby, which confirmed that the ring did actually exist. These results were published and they are linked earlier in this article.

“To determine whether it was necessary to have a ‘beacon’ individual at the target site, Swann suggested carrying out an experiment to remote view the planet Jupiter before the upcoming NASA Pioneer 10 flyby. In that case, much to his chagrin (and ours) he found a ring around Jupiter, and wondered if perhaps he had remote viewed Saturn by mistake. Our colleagues in astronomy were quite unimpressed as well, until the flyby revealed that an unanticipated ring did in fact exist.” (source)

Pretty fascinating, isn’t it? Swann went on to write about the Moon, and other strange factors that are associated with space that we have yet to become aware of.  You can access those books here.

The shutdown of the program was fishy. According to Ingo, human telepathy came into play and that’s when the men in suits walked in and shut the program down.

Below is one of many talks given by Russell Targ talking about the program more.

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